How intimacy influences women’s loyalty: The reciprocity is what makes you less masculine. It’s not a case of forgive me all day, every day. But for me to step out on you means that this relationship means something different in your eyes than it does in my eyes. But you’re saying it’s different if it’s a man? I wouldn’t say it’s totally different. I think the disrespect is there, but I think the No, but you said if it’s a woman and she forgives him, or if it’s a woman and she forgives him, it’s fine, and it can all work. But if a man forgives her, it’s doomed. I said it’s difficult. I said it’s very difficult. But I do think men can compartmentalize sex in a way women can’t.
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The other similarly, when we were talking about male cheats, you were very quick to say that the cheater is a problem. But when females cheat, it’s an emotional need she was outsourcing, which seems to be forgivable. I didn’t say she wasn’t wrong. I said it was wrong. Yeah, only when I probed that. In this day and age, I’m curious who you guys think cheats more. We’ve heard that both men and women cheat, but women are better at hiding it, and that men get caught easier, and women are just good at hiding it. Is that true? I mean, that’s the thing. It’s like both men and women; not everyone, but men and women do cheat, but women are less at getting caught, I guess. I don’t know. They’re smarter about it, or they’re, I don’t know.
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And they have more opportunities than the average man. Really? Yeah. I mean, the average woman will have at least somebody who will sleep with her. She doesn’t have to have that much going for her. She doesn’t have to have a great job, and she doesn’t have to have-You know, a-a-a-a lot of charm and wit. She can jump on an app, and it’s a bit easier for her. Whereas for the average man, it’s not as easy. So I think the opportunity is higher. Interesting. Is that why? And guys, I guess, are hitting on women more than women are hitting on men, right? Yeah. So the temptation is a bit-is a bit different there as well. But I-I-Are you-What’s the stats right now? Do we know if men are cheating more than women these days, or are women cheating more than women?
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Well, the stats, I would always argue that women don’t admit that they’re cheating as much. You know, there’s always a pride in men when they cheat and stuff like that. They’re-they’re always a bit more open about it. Um, I know it’s some of my closest friends that have cheated, even on me. Well, I’ve been in the process. They’ll pretend they haven’t cheated. So there’s a part of them that denies cheating. Is that men or women? Women. Yeah, yeah, women. Even my favorite, then later they’ll-they’ll admit to it. But I’ve been in the process. They’re like, no, no, but at that time, we weren’t really together. At that time, we weren’t together. And so-but there was a simultaneous connection.
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But what I would say is, I don’t know who cheats more or who cheats less, but I think when women cheat, there is a-um, it’s more definitive. As in that, it’s harder for them to come back from cheating. I tend to, and I-I don’t know if you guys would agree, I tend to advise men that when your woman cheats on you, it’s very difficult to forgive her. I wouldn’t recommend it. I-I highly don’t recommend it. But men shouldn’t forgive her? Men shouldn’t forgive. Why not? With women, I think there’s room for flexibility, depending on the causes. Oh, this is going to get a lot of-It’s going to get a lot of comments. With men- Why should men not forgive the women they’re with who cheat on them?
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Because for a woman to cheat on you, it’s not that she’s fallen in love with another man; she’s definitely not in love with you. Ooh, man, that’s going to hurt. And so, for you to take her back is just providing her free accommodation until she meets a man she wants to fall in love with. And I would like, a lot of men think, oh no, women are so emotionally attached to sex. No, no, no. Some women can literally have an affair with a local PT who doesn’t care about her, and she doesn’t really care about him. It’s-what’s the driving force is not the love for the guy that she’s cheating on. It’s a lack of love and respect for the man she’s cheating on. Interesting. Yeah.
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And so when you forgive her and retry with the relationship, she’s already decided she doesn’t really want to be with you, but she will stay in this until she finds someone who will love her. So if a man cheats on a woman that she’s in-he’s in a committed relationship with, is it also saying he doesn’t respect and love her? It’s not a matter of love; it isn’t so much the component. It’s more of a lack of respect. It’s more of a lack of respect and a lack of fear of losing the relationship. I can’t speak for men, but a lot of-I can’t speak for women, but a lot of them can say that they can compartmentalize. They can still really want their relationship to work.
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They can still really be all illusionary, but this is what they say. They want their relationship to work. They love their wife very deeply. They want all of that, but they are just outsourcing the sex because it might be lacking, or it’s not the way they like it, or they’re outsourcing a feeling. For in my experience with women, when they cheat, it’s not so much that there’s something they’re craving outside; it’s there’s something in the house that they’re just not happy with. And as a result, it’s-they will cheat. And I’ve been in situations where I’ve had clients come on the phone or a video call, and I’ve switched on my screen, and I’ve looked at the couple, and I say, ‘I can tell she’s cheating. No way.’ Without saying a word.
They haven’t said a word to me. And I remember the last couple I did this with looked, and I thought, she’s having an affair, but I’m not going to say anything. Did you say it publicly? After a comment. And I said, what brings you here? And she started with, we have a great relationship. We’re very good. Everything is good. We don’t love each other anymore. And I said, can you be honest with me? Are you having an affair? And she said, well, recently, and it transpired that she has an affair. And I said I can tell by your lack of connection to your husband, your lack of love. Most people, when they come on a therapy call, he was all suited and booted, ready for this call, like, save my marriage.
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She was literally like, oh, God, do we have to do this? Like, the disconnect that was there was there was no coming back from him. There was literally— From her energy. From her energy. It looked like she was held— Like, by the throat to be there. And that’s such a common theme when a woman cheats. It seems to be like, I’m not actually in love with you anymore, but I’ll make it work because the guy, like, I haven’t gotten many alternatives. So what I say to men is, firstly, not only is she not in love, the second thing is it ignites something in a man that’s not good for him. The main thing it ignites is a feeling of inadequacy, sexual inadequacy and masculinity, but it can lead to physical abuse when it comes to a man.
That anger and rage. Some men will use that anger and rage to leave and work on themselves. Other men will use that anger and rage to control and abuse. Women do this, too. I’m not saying when women find a man who’s cheating, they don’t get abusive. It’s just the damage that can come from a man being domestically violent is something that is, they’re both wrong, but it’s something that I wouldn’t risk. So that’s why- I’m going to have Matthew reply to this in a second, but do you think a relationship can truly repair and heal after someone has cheated, or do you think when a woman cheats? When a woman cheats, do you think it’s a lot harder, or don’t you think it’s possible? Not possible. Really?
Yeah. From what I see, every time a man forgives a woman for cheating, she eventually leaves him to forgive her. Oh, really? Yeah. Why is that? Is it just because of a lack of self-respect? Is it a lack of understanding now that there are no boundaries to this relationship? Most women are under the impression that a man would leave. Men tend to think that women can be a bit softer and emotional, and they can convince them. Most women tend to assume men will leave because that’s what they tell each other, ‘Oh, I would never put up with it, I would never put up with it.’ So when she learns he’s willing to accept the unacceptable, she now realizes unacceptable behavior will run with him, and therefore, there is no motivator to prevent it from happening again.
So I’ve always seen, again, I have to preface this, I see worst-case scenarios, but I’ve always seen it become a repeat offender. I’m not saying men don’t do it the same way, but I’m just saying in my experience, I’ve seen women who’re simply waiting for her to leave you now. So maybe you could stay in a relationship, but it’s just not going to be a healthy, committed relationship. There might be more breakdowns. I think one thing men underestimate is how loyal we are to the person we believe gives us the most sexual satisfaction. Is this a woman? Women, yeah. Say that again? Women are incredibly loyal to the man who gives them the most sexual satisfaction. Really? Over like financial security or safety or providing status? A lot of the time, they can be.
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I’m not saying all of the time, but a lot of the time, they can be. I know women who will wait for a man who’s in jail simply because, not because he’s the best, but she’s all he knows. Since she’s been with him, she hasn’t touched another human being. So she’s, that’s all she knows. And women that are like that, they’re not as curious. That’s all he knows. But when she’s got that curiosity and opens herself up to being pleased by other people, it becomes difficult to revert to monogamy. Really? Yeah, it becomes very difficult. Because all I can be pleased by someone else’s well or maybe it’s better or different. It can be a man or a woman. It can be a man or a woman.
When you open that door up for her to unlock that part of her to somebody else, it becomes difficult to reverse. So, I’m saying this from a female perspective. I would love to hear from a male perspective what it’s like when it comes to cheating. But there is a lack of respect that comes afterward, and there’s a willingness to try again. And it just means she rarely stops because she’s now checked out of the relationship. And do you think if a man cheats, he, within a relationship, could stop cheating in that relationship? It isn’t easy again. It isn’t easy. Yeah, I still think it’s a difficult thing. I would say it isn’t easy. I don’t know how definite it is because it would have to come to a real understanding he loses his family.
But for women, it’s just the potential of domestic violence that comes with it as well. I think it’s better to just let her go rather than hold her and then have so much rage and either rage towards her or rage towards yourself. Either way, it’s not good. And I know that sounds too definitive and too negative. But in the original, when I first started my practice, I used to take a lot of my inspiration from Esther Perel where she’s like, you can rebuild, have those conversations. What I noticed is that rebuilding is just buying time. Yeah. For the inevitable. For the inevitable. Like maybe it will last another four or eight years. Maybe 50 years ago, when there weren’t dating apps, it might undo itself.
In this day and age, when there are so many alternatives combined with almost what they see as permission, it means delaying. Interesting. Delaying the divorce. All right, Mazzy, I’m curious about your thoughts on cheating. Feel free to disagree. Is it, you know, I guess why do, with the women that you work with, and I know women cheat that come to your retreats, or they’re trying to like to heal and fix their broken heart and all these different things, repair from being cheated on, all these different things. Why do you think women cheat or the ones that have communicated why they cheated? What’s the main reason women cheat in a long-term relationship? And can a relationship be repaired after cheating occurs? Yeah. You’ve heard it from a lot of women. Yeah.
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You have been cheated on, and you have also cheated. I don’t know where to start here. I struggle immensely with the kind of way that this is being framed. The kind of Saadia, the talk about, you know, women cheat because they don’t respect their man. Mm-hmm. Which I think even that is a-Yeah. You know, so many people cheat because they are craving an emotional connection that they’re not getting inside their relationship. I mean, how many women are with men who are never present, you know, who don’t show up for them, who, you know, are workaholics, you know, obsessed with their business, obsessed with something else? Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden they find that they develop an emotional connection with someone on the outside that maybe started innocently enough that, you know, that emotional connection turned into something else.
Mm-hmm. I don’t; it’s a very male picture in some ways, your painting of women, this idea that they are essentially just, you know, they don’t, that it comes from a place of essentially disrespect and contempt for their man and it’s just a bit of sex on the side. Mm-hmm. Maybe there are some of those, but it feels like we’re missing a giant archetype there, which is the woman who is craving connection. Oh, emotional connection? Yeah, emotional connection. But then what I’m curious. That’s the precursor to a physical connection. So would you say the fault lies in the man not meeting her needs or in the cheater herself? I don’t know that I think of it that way.
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Well, I think she’s, I think she’s obviously transgressing in terms of the boundaries of the relationship, and it’s a that’s wrong, and that’s, you know, on either side to not have that conversation that, hey, I’m not getting my needs met. Can we talk about this? Or even, hey, I’m having feelings for someone. I need to talk about this because I don’t want it to go to a place I can’t come back from. So there’s that, of course, that’s wrong. But I’m, I’m more just suggesting that the, I think that the scope of why people cheat is a lot wider than, you know, I don’t, I don’t respect my husband, and so I’m just going to go and do this. Yeah.
I also don’t; I struggle with this idea that women, once they’ve cheated, can’t look at their man the same way again and that they’ve just now fundamentally lost something. Do you think they can look at the man with love res,pect, and admiration? I think they can look at him the same way, but not if he forgives her. Well, but this is, you know, what’s really interesting about that, Saadia, is it’s a kind of, it’s a real, kind of almost prejudice against women and their capacity for kindness. It almost, it was almost the same as saying that women are just inherently more cruel than men. But I’m saying that with the preface that they’ve already cheated, which is a lack of kindness.
No, I hear you; I know that. I get the scenario. So it’s a skewed, it’s not women, it’s cheating women. What you’re saying is men are capable of kindness, compassion and a future connection with someone who forgives them. Mm-hmm. But women are not capable of that. They’re not capable of such kindness. I would argue it’s not that they’re not capable of such kindness, but we’re talking about a market of women who’ve already demonstrated a lack of kindness through cheating. So in that subgroup, absolutely, they’re lacking kindness. No, I hear you. We’re talking just about people who have cheated. Yeah. But to think of other women in that way, where it’s like a woman is incapable of having the ability to go, ‘Oh my God.’ Mm-hmm. I have really made a mistake or something …
fucked up here. Yeah. I have hurt the person that I love, who loves me. I’ve hurt this person that I’ve made a vow to, that I’m in this relationship with, who didn’t deserve it. Yeah. And that has nothing to do with them. Mm-hmm. That’s on me. Mm-hmm. And if this person is kind enough, if they have the space in their heart to forgive me, I’m going to honor that. Yeah. That’s impossible to suggest that you feel like women are missing a compassion gene that men have. It’s not that they’re missing a compassion gene. They’re looking for protectiveness in a way that men don’t look for in women. That’s incredibly reductive. Mm-hmm.
But what I-I find that really reductive, the idea that what women, the only thing women really care about is, and what does protect mean exactly? Protectiveness is like a biological, but we take it in an evolutionary sense. A protectiveness would be, from an alpha perspective, in evolutionary terms, it would be a man that protects his kin from predators. It protects his children from being born from somebody else, essentially paternal uncertainty. Now, from a primitive perspective, we look for men who not only can gather resources but can also prevent paternal uncertainty. Now, when he’s missing that fundamental like he’s not bothered about paternal uncertainty, it’s not that we’re-He is bothered. Let’s say he’s brokenhearted. He’s like, oh my God, I’m crushed. Mm-hmm.
What you’re saying is she would have had respect for him had he shown up at the apartment as she was about to have sex with the guy and beat him up. No, she would, given that she already did on the side and she came back; the fact that he missed the moment and he’s now crushed and hurt, that’s him not protecting her? Here’s the thing. Masculinity is not about availability and consistency. Masculinity is about knowing when to walk away as well from a female perspective. Some endless women have men that message double text, triple text. What puts them off in that moment is not his kindness and compassion, it’s his unwillingness to walk away when he’s being disrespected. But you are framing forgiveness as the antithesis of masculinity.
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But you are framing forgiveness as acceptance. I think forgive me if I was to do that. Accepting me is a different experience. Forgiveness is saying this relationship means more to me than my pride or my ego. I love you. I want to make this work and I’m going to be a big enough man to make this work in spite of this. And that makes him the bigger person. It doesn’t make him emasculate. You’re framing forgiveness as he’s emasculated himself by forgiving her, and she can never get over that moment of him emasculating himself. I believe that very, very strongly. And the reason is that the relationship should mean loads to you, but part of you should understand for her to do this, we don’t see the relationship in the same line. You’re framing forgiveness as the antithesis of masculinity. Your inability to understand the importance of reciprocity is what makes you less masculine. It’s not a case of forgive me all day, every day. But for me to step out on you means that this relationship means something different in your eyes than it does in my eyes. But you’re saying it’s totally different if it’s a man? I wouldn’t say it’s totally different. I think the disrespect is there, but I think that you said, you said if it’s a woman, she and she forgives him, uh, or if it’s a woman and she forgives him, it’s fine, and it can all work. But if a man, I said, it’s difficult. I said, it’s very difficult, but I do think men can compartmentalize sex in a way women can’t. The other similarly, when we were talking about male cheats, you were very quick to say that the cheater is a problem, but when females cheat, it’s an emotional need she was outsourcing, which seemed to be forgivable. I didn’t say she wasn’t wrong. I said it was
wrong. Only when I probed that.
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